much less the success of the economy. there's this false equation that countries with great educational systems are going to have innovative dynamic economies. is that true of japan? of course it's not. is that true of finland? it's not there either. their one champion corporation is nokia. it's good half as many people as belgium. that's what makes a lot of these comparisons ridiculous. >> we should ignore them? >> yes, because they basically tell you nothing except to invest a lot of money in education and that's what we do here in the united states, putting more and more money into schools, with, really, very little to show for it. >> no, that's the opposite, in fact, because what's happened, what this shows is you put a lot of money into education, that's not working. >> we're doing great in spending money. we're right up at the top. >> so clearly something else has to be done. because that's not doing it for us. >> education is a value in and of itself. there's a lot to be said for having smarter 15-year-olds or 18-y